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Post by Taz on Nov 21, 2018 0:15:42 GMT
I still think our first priority should be figuring out which weapons each character would logically use, rather than trying to figure out the weapon types first and try to distribute to best fit. Allow me to demonstrate my thought process with regards to Jupiterlad specifically, as discussed in the collaborative section of the Discord:
"Being raised in the simple life, he's not going to be well-acquainted with implements made entirely out of metal (assuming, of course, metal and metalworking are both roughly as expensive in our fantasy world as it is in the real world, for simplicity's sake). So, no Swords. What would he be using instead, you might ask?
Well, he would know the Axe for processing lumber, the Hammer (Mace) for construction, the Scythe for harvesting, and, yes, the Pitchfork (Spear) for baling hay."
Bam, we have four weapon types that make sense. We will be putting them into the game because we know that at least Jupiterlad, if nobody else, can make use of each of them.
So far, here are the weapon types that we have figured best fit each of our main cast:
Talia: Staves, (Spears?) Jupiterlad: Axes, Maces, Scythes, Spears Venusguy: Light Blades, [open] Marsgirl: (Swords?), [open], [open], [open]
Thus, demonstrably, we never even had a need for more than 10 weapon types tops in the first place. Once we decide on a more tangible background for Venusguy and Marsgirl, we may not even need that many! Once we know who uses what, we can properly get to work on developing appropriate weapons for our cast.
Side note: Spears is questioned under Talia because while I personally felt that made the most sense, given some of her concept art thus far and her origins in a port town, some people are yet not comfortable with the concept of giving a healer a spear. Either way, it would be upon us to make it work, all while keeping in mind that if she did have access to spears, that she would also be sharing a weapon pool with Jupiterlad. Meanwhile, Swords is only questioned under Marsgirl simply because almost nothing is even established about her in the first place, and PK_Water suggested it presumably so we could have an obligatory Sword-wielder in our cast. Either way, I'm fine with it.
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Post by Falgor on Nov 21, 2018 7:14:37 GMT
Depending on interpretation, I could see Flails fitting either in maces or in whips. I mean, if Castlevania can get away with calling a morning star a whip, why not us, right? I'd like to know why you had spears as mixed weapons, while martial weapons are physical. Could you explain the reasoning to me? The reason I had them sorted where they were: Maces were in mixed because Mia, Sheba, and Rief could equip them. I imagine it was inspired by Clerics from D&D, who are often depicted using maces. Spears were physical, because I usually see them as the iconic weapon of a physical tank. It's the weapon of the phalanx, allowing them to hoist a shield and attack at the same time. Martial Arts had the whole Ki/Chi thing going on in GS. Having them mixed was kind of an expression of that. Sort of, mixing the physical and the magical together as a thematic concept. Plus, mind over matter is a common theme with martial arts, and psynergy's shot for psychic energy. Mind + Body = martial weapons, more or less. That's my angle. I'd love to hear yours - hell, I'd like to see where everyone else would sort their weapon types and why. Should help us narrow down where we ultimately place things. About the Flails, we have the same way of thinking. I did have a sliiight preference for Maces just because it subjectively makes more sense to me, but both are acceptable imo. Though I can imagine that it could be interesting to put them with the Whips for more "diversity" in this category (even if it was purely visual diversity). Oh, alright! I thought the approach in your last post was to have Offensive/Defensive/Support "groups/splits" of weapons but it was in fact still the Physical/Mixed/Magical. I definitely think my splits work in a Physical/Mixed/Magical setting though. Basically, I grouped the more Defensive/"ranged combat" weapons together. Imo Martial Arts weapons fit the Offensive/Physical group more, because Martial Artists are all about the close combat attacks in terms of video game archetypes, and they're not about Magic usually. I should add that "Martial" (at least to me) originated from Sveta's unique weapons in Dark Dawn and she didn't have a very clear role compared to all the other characters and it was also a way to "fix" that for Flint. While Spears fit my initial idea of Defensive/Mixed because they allow the one who carries them to stay relatively far away from an enemy, which is imo not a bad idea since (in a more "in universe logic" kind of way where battles are not turn based) allows them to more easily stay out of reach when they need a bit of time to cast some Magic, since they're Mixed and rely on both aspects. To give more insight about my point of view on the Ki/Chi thing in GS, I remember that while it's possible for everyone to master Chi, Ki/Psynergy is limited to Adepts or the rare people influenced by Psynergy Stones. Going from this very "Golden Sun" way of looking at things, all Adepts are pretty much Martial Artists already. However, even for them, Psynergy is technically limited, as different classes can limit their use of it in battle (in the form of PP). So in my splits, Martial Arts weapons would suit Adepts with the smallest amount of PP who rely more on their weapons. To put it in a more condensed way:What I called Offensive: "Front line" Physical characters, rely more on their weapons, not much in magic: Swords/Axes/Hammers/Martial Arts What I called Defensive: "Middle line" Mixed characters, rely on both their weapons and magic: Blades/Bows/Spears/Whips "Rear line" Magical characters, rely on Magic, not much in weapons: Staves/Symbols/Scythes/Daggers And when put in a table like in the first post:
| Offensive | Defensive | Control
| Balanced | Physical | Axes | Maces/Hammers
| Martial Arts | Swords
| Mixed
| Bows | Spears
| Whips
| Blades
| Magical
| Scythes | Symbols | Daggers | Staves |
N.B: The "Mixed" line could possibly be shuffled, especially between Blades, Spears and Bows. Please take into account that the way my brain works, it's hard for me to not already plan/have a vague idea of how that system could work (including which characters will get which kind of weapons) with the Goals 2 and 3 at the very least. ^^' And in the end what I'm doing is just a twist on your version because it was a very good basis.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 21, 2018 14:00:25 GMT
Hmm, maybe I'm the only one who's a fan of rear line physical characters and front line mages. I've no problem with the idea of a D&D style Ranger or Rogue wielding a bow to snipe, nor for a mage who specializes in blitz tactics and point-blank assaults. To me, the strength of Golden Sun lies in the hidden potential that comes from separating that multipliers from the spells the classes grant. It allows for tanky mages, for fragile warriors, for melee healers and builds of all kinds. Both the traditional and unconventional are possible, and likely, through the use of the class system. After all, "Psynergy is a warrior's skill", so there's nothing stopping a character from developing a caster-centric front line approach. Just think your traditional warrior build, but swap the Attack and Defense stats with the Casting and Warding stats, and have their Ragnaroks by based on Casting instead of Attack for damage. Simple, right? Taz : I disagree - the fact is that the possibility of a future game always exists, so I prefer to design philosophy in a way that leaves open consistency for future games. That means we create a standardized design approach, then adapt the characters to that, rather than building everything around the characters. It's been working for us so far - we decided on Physical/Magical split over a Melee/Ranged/Caster split before we even knew who the characters were. We can design some standard weapon types, a system to assign those weapon types to characters, and then figure out what each character is best suited to using based on what personalities and backstories the writers give the characters. This approach is especially useful because we don't actually know what the characters are like yet. The most developed one is Talia - so it's better to work this out now, then assign them later once we have a better idea of who they are and what makes the most sense for them. Also, just because have X number of weapon types in the system doesn't mean that that's how many we will use in the game itself. It's entirely possible that we don't actually assign a weapon type because it doesn't make sense for the characters in question. The solution then is to not include the weapon type in the items, but to show its existence in the world. Scythes and Spears were done in this manner in Golden Sun - both are clearly used by NPCs and foes, so we know they're weapon types in that world, just not one the heroes used.
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Post by WitchRolina on Dec 17, 2018 1:02:23 GMT
In the meeting today, we came to the following decision: We will make a 4x3 grid of weapons, but if design later calls for it, we will rearrange them to fit the demands of design. All that's left is to fill out the chart with our initial pitch.
| Attack | Defense | Indirect | Balanced | Physical |
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| Hybrid |
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| Magical |
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^ If each person can fill out this table with what they think the 12 weapon types should be, I'll take a tally of what the most common types are and we'll use that to move the discussion forward. As for the "change" in names for the categories, it's still Offense, Defense, and Control, just with names I'm hoping are a bit more clear.
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Post by Falgor on Dec 22, 2018 4:54:36 GMT
| Attack | Defense | Indirect
| Balanced | Physical | Axes | Maces/Hammers
| Martial Arts | Swords
| Hybrid
| Bows | Spears
| Whips
| Blades
| Magical
| Scythes | Symbols | Daggers | Staves |
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Post by Anggel on Jan 12, 2019 20:41:31 GMT
Here's my pitch adressing the weapon's table.
| Attack | Defense | Indirect | Balanced | Physical | Axes | Fists | Musical Instruments | Swords | Hybrid | Morning Stars | Spears | Whips | Bows | Magical | Scythes | Magical Charms | Books | Staves |
Axes -> Lots of damage but not enough control. Fists -> Physical defense interacting with the enemy and controling his movements whilst fighting. Musical Instruments -> Indirect physical damage by sounds. Useful for buffs and debuffs. Swords -> A classic.
Morning Stars -> Middle ground of the range of a scythe and the power of an axe. Spears -> Middle ground of a fist (you defend physically) but also can magically (spears can be held as a charm or a wand). Whips -> The enemy can be controlled and managed using whips (striking the whip on the ground and make them move to dodge, bind them...). Useful for debuffs and ailments. Bows -> Middle ground balanced weapon with the physical power of the sword and the magical range of a stave when a spell is casted.
Scythes -> A classic. Magical Charms -> An object you use to pray, chant, held, move in a certain way, dance with it, do a posing...etc in such a way magic is casted (mostly for defense). Books -> Indirect damage by drawing magic sigils/symbols in a book, read them... etc. Useful for buffs and ailments. Staves -> A classic.
Note: The cycle of ailment, buff, debuff of the control weapons can be changed if wanted.
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Post by freejusticehere on Jan 12, 2019 20:58:11 GMT
| Attack | Defense | Indirect | Balanced | Physical | Bludgeoning (Hammers, etc.) | Axes | Martial? | Swords | Hybrid | Flails | Spears | Bows | Blades | Magical | Scythes | Staves | Explosives (better as item?) | Throwing (Knives, Shuriken...) |
So I see Attack as being fairly damage-oriented, dealing with inflicting damage most effectively. Pretty straight forward. Defense could be weapons that are either paired with, or are designed with a defensive stance (axes with handle, spears with shield). Indirect could maybe be focused on taking the damage out of the hands of the player and more into a focused strike from a distance, although I am not sure whether or not there is a better fit than Martial, or a better definition for Indirect in this instance. Balanced Weapons are a blend of other types, which can focus on two categories at the same time. Swords and blades can block attacks, and throwing weapons are projectiles that inflict damage from afar. Flails seem like they could be their own category pretty effectively, possibly without confusing categories. I often see them as segmented weapons like nunchucks and throwing maces. Bludgeoning maces are connected to the handle and are used sort of as a sword. This whole thing is a little rough, so there are some things where I simply had to guess and cheese through, so bear with me.
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Post by zeldafan30 on Jan 12, 2019 22:13:22 GMT
This took me a lot of thinking, but I think I finally got it. Here's my weapon table:
| attack | Defense | Indirect | Balanced | Physical | Axes/Hammers | Spears | Whips
| Swords | Hybrid | Martial | Blades | Throwing Knives/Daggers | Bows | Magical | Scythes | Charms/Symbols | Books/Tomes | Staves |
This table is probably gonna be the weird one, but I feel like the weapons belong so... yeah.
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Post by sandman on Jan 12, 2019 23:59:20 GMT
| Offensive | Defensive | Indirect | Balanced | Physical | Blades | Axes | Bows/Crossbows | Martial Arts | Hybrid | Sickles/Scythes | Hammers/Maces | Pole Arms | Chain Weapons | Magical | Rods | Staves | Tomes | Symbols |
'Chain Weapons' are referring to eastern weaponry, ala Kusarigama or Kyoketsu Shogi.
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Post by WitchRolina on Jan 20, 2019 4:23:16 GMT
Current running total. I'm gonna be dragging more of you guys in here to add to this, because this isn't enough data. Where the hell are you guys?
| Physical | Hybrid | Magical | Offence | Defense | Indirect | Balance | Total | Axes | 7 |
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| 4 | 2 |
| 1 | 7 | Spears | 2 | 5 |
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| 6 | 1 |
| 7 | Hammers | 4 | 1 |
| 2 | 2 | 1 |
| 5 | Swords | 6 | |
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| 1 |
| 5 | 6 | Bows | 1 | 5 | 1 | 2 |
| 2 | 3 | 7 | Maces | 1 | 3 | |
| 3 | 1 |
| 4 | Blades | 1 | 5 | | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 6 | Martial | 3 | 3 | | 1 |
| 2 | 3 | 6 | Staves | |
| 7 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 7 | Holy Symbols | | | 4 | | 3 | | 1 | 4 | Scythes | 1 | 1 | 5 | 5 | | 2 |
| 7 | Daggers | | | 3 | 1 | | 2 |
| 3 | Whips | | 2 | 1 | | 1 | 2 |
| 3 | Fists | 1 | | | | 1 | |
| 1 | Instruments | 1 | | | 1 | | |
| 1 | Magic Charms | | | 2 | | 2 | |
| 2 | Book/Tome | | | 3 | | | 3 | | 3 | Morning Star(*) | | 1 | 1 | 2 |
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| 2 | Flail | 1 | | | 1 | |
| | 1 | Explosives | | | 1 | | | 1 |
| 1 | Throwing Knives | | 1 | 1 | | | 1 | 1 | 2 | Crossbows | 1 | |
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| 1 |
| 1 | Chain Weapons | 1 | 1 | | 1 | | | 1 | 2 |
This is the tally as it currently stands. A word of note - I am very surprised that people made the distinction between Maces and Morning Stars, given that a morning star is just a Mace with spikes on it. You guys did do basic google searches of these, right?
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Post by WitchRolina on Jan 20, 2019 4:38:39 GMT
Logic for my original set:
Axes: Physical weapons designed for brute force. Makes sense for offense. Spears: Classic weapon of the phalanx, the archetypical tank. Thus, iconic for defenders. Hammers: Weapons designed to subert armor and mail. As it's used to get around the target's defenses, I interpreted it as control. Swords: Classic versatile weapon of knights. Strength-based bladed weapons. Versatility lends to balanced style.
Bows: There's a reason that the current real life "meta" revolves around ranged weaponry - thus, offense. In addition, has been classically assigned to physical, hybrid, and magical users throughout fantasy and fiction. Maces: Iconic weapon of clerics in D&D, which FF would take and turn into the White Mage. Excellent for when a mage needs to crush some skulls, but doesn't want to use their magic. As they're iconic to classic knights in armor as well, figured they might do well in defense. Blades: Weapons often seen in use by a magic knight or ninja. Dexterity-based bladed weapons. Idea is that they'd use faints, parries, and misdirection. Martial: Weapons of the martial arts - quarterstaves, tonfa, chaku, etc. Depending on who's using them, it could either be a warrior martial artist or someone out of Avatar the Last Airbender. Martial Arts is classically all-purpose, so balanced fits it well.
Staves: Classical weapon of the mage, most iconically using spells like fireball. As it's iconically paired with the iconic attack spell, I have it be offense oriented. Symbols: Or more specifically, Holy Symbols. Ankhs from Golden Sun, but also other staves with religious iconography, such as Crosses and that thing that Miroku carried in Inu Yasha. As the people who use these are traditionally healers, I associated it with defense. Scythes: Actually an unwieldy weapon! As such, it's used not as a weapon in and of itself, but through its iconography. Scythes are loaded with symbolism of death and the harvest, and it makes them ideal for the types of spells that the instant-KO spells fall under - indirect spells. Daggers: Ritual daggers and Athames have been a part of magic from time immemorial. Ritual magic had all kinds of effects, so I felt it balanced.
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Post by Taz on Jan 20, 2019 5:28:00 GMT
| Attack | Defense | Indirect | Balanced | Physical | Chain | Sword | Scythe | Axe | Hybrid | Blade | Spear | Mace | Knuckles | Magical | Dagger | Whip | Staff | Bow |
Sorry I'm late, but I'm creating a table from scratch at Rolina's request, so she has more data points. The process of creating this table started with listing out 12 weapons. I then proceeded to try and sort them into a cohesive whole, in a manner simultaneously catering to each character's individual needs while remaining logically consistent. For example, to determine whether a weapon would classify on the Physical or Magical spectrum, I'd considered how practical it would be to bring each one to a melee, as well as how easy a weapon would be to use in a melee without any prior training for the Hybrid section. I then sorted the weapons on the horizontal axis attributes based on which variety of magic each weapon I would associate each with (for remember, all of our characters are strictly Magic-Warriors, even as they trend towards one side or the other of that spectrum), also as requested. On both axes, I also took into consideration each character's "iconic" weapon as decided in last week's meeting, and placed them in either the Physical or Magical cell of the variety of magic that best suited their role. After all was said and done, my list of 12 weapons almost perfectly fell into place! Whips proved to be a rather rascally category, however, needing a swap on both the vertical and horizontal axis before all 12 cells ended up filled. This all being said, I hope moving forward, we can remain flexible in our search for the ground that sees met both the individual needs of our characters as well as the needs for our world at large!
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Post by Taz on Jan 21, 2019 3:56:18 GMT
Rolina said she wanted me to explain my weapon categories to the general public in a manner similar to her previous post, so here goes:
Chains: Any weapon composed of a weight-and-tether, such as the Chinese Meteor Hammer. While designed to magnify force, actually controlling said force is an art all its own. Thus, it gets reserved for warriors. Swords: Double-edged blades composed entirely of metal, often with a diamond or hexagonal cross-section, and attached to a hilt. A weapon optimized for defending oneself in combat against an aggressor with a sword. Fencing is a warriors' discipline. Marsgirl's iconic weapon--swords have been the weapon of choice for frontline healers in many a fantasy pastiche, so why should we be any different when piggybacking is so much simpler? Scythes: A concave blade optimized for harvesting grasses, including sickles and kamas. Unwieldy for direct combat; only one with enough physical stamina to work the fields should be handling one of these at all. Axes: A hatchet with one or two edges, designed to drive all its force into the tip of its wedge. The opposite of the Sword in terms of weight balance, requiring raw strength more than trained finesse to physically control. Zach's iconic weapon--as a tank, he needs an eclectic variety of spells to do whatever his job may demand at any given moment. His trusty axe should be up to the task, whatever it may be.
Blades: Single-edged sword variants, often convex to facilitate a clean cut. Kendo practitioners also practice meditation, making it a suitable practice for one who wishes to hone body and mind. Spears: Pointy rocks on long sticks have been simultaneously the simplest and the most effective means of sustaining one's life with force for the vast majority of human history. You can use this with not much training at all, and it will get the job done. Maces: Hammers, bludgeons, if the spear was a pointy rock on a long stick, the mace is a weight on a shorter stick. A favored weapon of those who can not or do not use bladed weapons, blunt-force trauma also found a niche in medieval times against opponents armored to thwart sharper weapons. Knuckles: Any weapon that could be euphemistically referred to as a punch-enhancer. Deadly already with no training at all, and a martial artist would scoff at the dishonorable thought of stooping to using one. Could you imagine the sheer force of destruction, though?
Daggers: A blade long only enough to get the job done. A versatile weapon for one skilled at legerdemain, it can be concealed or even thrown. Venusguy's iconic weapon--what better way to dish damage than with a deadly dagger? Whips: The opposite of chain-weapons in terms of weight-balance, this likewise weaponizes physics. Momentum is velocity times mass, so when the relatively bulky handle is flicked in a specific manner, the momentum is conserved down the body of the whip, thus accelerating the minimally-massive tip to ludicrous velocities, and thus generating large quantities of deadly force, similar to a bullet. . . . as I said in my last post, this was a difficult weapon to categorize, so it is mostly here to fill a space. But hey, Rydia technically could use whips from the back line without a range penalty, I guess! That counts, right? Staves: Anything from simple walking sticks to surprisingly deadly quarter-and-bo-staves. Popularized for spellcasters by the OG Gandalf himself. Talia's iconic weapon--our merchant girl specializes in offensive support, softening up the enemy for the party to finish off. Her staves should be appropriately tuned for the task. Bows: I'll admit, I hesitated at including projectile weapons at all, but bows are too iconic a fantasy staple to pass up, and Venusguy may end up throwing his daggers for combat anyway, so what's the harm in including these in our world as well? These are placed in the wheelhouse of mages simply because an archer is not going to be fighting on the front lines, anyway, and if they are not fighting on the front lines in a world where basically everybody has access to magic, you know that they would be incorporating magic into their practice as well. Plus, the player never worrying about running out of ammo practically hand-waves itself away. Most famously, the elves of Dungeons and Dragons are known for making skilled archers and wizards both, so it is not unprecedented to associate the two.
Of course, I make this post knowing full well my own conclusions diverge from many of yours (at least according to Rolina's tally), and will thus likely not be considered anyway. And that is fine. All I am here for is to explain myself, not to persuade any of you.
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Post by abrahamsitokun2004 on Apr 7, 2020 4:24:55 GMT
Hello how are you? I would like to help in the Golden Sun fangame as much as possible, since I like his saga and wanted to help
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