capy
New Member
Posts: 24
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Post by capy on Nov 14, 2018 17:35:18 GMT
On the leveling weapons debate I think it would be an interesting property exclusive to artifacts. At least me personally while playing GS would have loved to have kept certain artifacts equipped due to their secondary bonuses but later abandoned them due to their poor primary stats. Only way I could see a system like this being implemented would be a magic + system like some RPGs and DND do. Using a crafting material you would use to craft a new artifact you could instead upgrade an existing one, each one being a separate weapon in the game (example: Elven Rapier +1). Weapons with already high statistics receive smaller buffs from these upgrades while weaker weapons receive larger ones. This would technically be adding a lot more weapons but could also lower the amount of artifact weapons that need to be made as all of them could be viable in the end game. The idea definitely needs some changes but I think it might be worth looking into.
As for weapons types I think we should keep this system of 12 but only as a tool for world building and attempt to lower the amount the party can use. I'll bring up my opinions on each of the ones I think should be in the game.
Dagger: Can be used by anyone but is easily the weakest of the weapons. Might not need to exist, could be merged with the light blade weapon type to lower the amount we have.
Spear: I'm a big fan of giving spears more representation in fantasy. Their ease of use makes them suitable for most characters, even some mages.
Bows: An interesting weapon that fits a particular tracker character heavily. Requires a certain skill set so its more of a mage weapon than a warrior one.
Maces: A staple weapon, used by warriors and clerical types.
Blades: A staple weapon, used by warriors and some capable mages.
Axes: A staple weapon, used by warriors exclusively.
Swords: A staple weapon, used by warriors exclusively.
Staves: The main weapon of a mage. Because we don't have a specifically white mage healer type there will be no distinction between ankhs and them. Have much poorer boosts to attack compared to GS games but provide a massive boost to casting.
Daggers and Spears are the most balanced in their usage and can be equipped by anyone. Bows, Maces and Blades are balanced in terms of bonuses to attack and casting buffs. Axes and Swords boost attack far greater than casting. Staves boost casting far greater than attack. The amount of balanced options is a deliberate decision as I believe every character should be able to have a balanced weapon.
Here is my idea for how the weapons and armor are spread out across party members:
All: Everyone can equip a dagger or a spear. Everyone can wear light equipment.
Talia: Blades, Staves Mystic
Jupiter: Blades, Swords, Axes (Maybe Maces) Heavy
Venus: Bow, Staves Mystic
Mars: Maces, Swords, Axes (maybe Blades) Heavy
Mages have 4 weapon options while warriors have 5-6. Mages can't access the attack boosts of swords and axes while warriors can't access the casting boosts of staves.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 14, 2018 17:48:09 GMT
I don't think we should have anything available to all characters - GS had a lot of overlap, but it didn't go that far. :/
I'm actually fond of lowering/minimizing the overlap between characters for weapons, to make them feel a bit more different from one another. That way we don't have 6 character rocking some variant of the same three swords. :/
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Post by Orange Bran on Nov 14, 2018 21:14:19 GMT
Being controversial here, I rather have the party full customizable;
that is giving every character access to every class and attaching the weapons to classes. This way we could also make the classes really differents to have less overlap.
I also like the idea of having artifacts upgradeables with crafting materials and magic becoming stronger on high tiers.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 14, 2018 21:28:02 GMT
Then you're looking for a Final Fantasy-based game using the Job System, not Golden Sun-based game.
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Post by Orange Bran on Nov 14, 2018 21:32:22 GMT
Then you're looking for a Final Fantasy-based game using the Job System, not Golden Sun-based game. The class system would be based on the djinn equiped, that has nothing similar with Final Fantasy.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 14, 2018 21:35:24 GMT
that is giving every character access to every class and attaching the weapons to classes. This is a final fantasy design choice. I will oppose this quite heavily, no matter how you change classes. It also seems to go against what many people in this thread have been wanting to do, and that is making characters feel more different from one another. You're literally suggesting they all be far more similar than in GS, where sharing classes was already a problem to many people.
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Post by sylvanelite on Nov 14, 2018 21:59:51 GMT
Then you're looking for a Final Fantasy-based game using the Job System, not Golden Sun-based game. IMO, this is an absolutely terrible response. It's an overgeneralisation and shuts down discussion without contributing. We're supposed to be a spiritual successor to Golden Sun. Not a direct clone. If we were to do everything 100% the way GS was, there's no point discussing anything. Golden Sun's weapon system has a lot of room for improvement, we should take considerations on board. As for the actual idea, Final Fantasy's job class has little to do with upgrading and materials. Even in Golden Sun you could forge weapons. It's a good idea.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 15, 2018 16:34:03 GMT
Then you're looking for a Final Fantasy-based game using the Job System, not Golden Sun-based game. IMO, this is an absolutely terrible response. It's an overgeneralisation and shuts down discussion without contributing. We're supposed to be a spiritual successor to Golden Sun. Not a direct clone. If we were to do everything 100% the way GS was, there's no point discussing anything. Golden Sun's weapon system has a lot of room for improvement, we should take considerations on board. As for the actual idea, Final Fantasy's job class has little to do with upgrading and materials. Even in Golden Sun you could forge weapons. It's a good idea. That's not what his suggestion was. His suggestion was that everyone shares the same classes, and that it's the classes that determine what weapons can be used, not what the characters are proficient in. That's a Final Fantasy system. Read the posts before you make replies. You're showing blatant and willful ignorance if you thought I was replying to the second part of his post.
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Post by Orange Bran on Nov 15, 2018 17:45:20 GMT
It was just an idea, but It's not so different from what Golden Sun already does. Weapons in Golden Sun are kind of separated by classes (at leat on default classes) and classes are shared between characters and I have no problem with tath.
If the majority prefer giving each character a more unique feel I understand It, but I rather have each character able to change between 33 really different classes than 11 more or less similars.
The base would still be a class system where djinn changes the class and stats for each character, which is Golden Sun-like enough for me. (Again, if that's not what most of us want I understand It and have no problems with It) And It seems we are going to change the summon system, so maybe we could give each character a more unique feel by giving them different summons (apart from different stories and personalities which I think is more important)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 19:19:16 GMT
Can't deny that the job system in FF Tactics Advance was one of my favourite parts of that game so it wouldn't be overwhelmingly bad if we borrowed a few elements of it.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 15, 2018 20:15:53 GMT
Weapons in Golden Sun are kind of separated by classes (at leat on default classes) No they're not. Both from an outsider's perspective an in the code itself they're assigned to characters, not to classes. A character's equipment and classes are 100% divorced from one another. Aren't you literally suggesting the exact opposite of this? 11 identical classes instead of 44 classes that stand apart from each other? If our point is to literally make the characters feel different from one another, this statement really doesn't make sense as a defense for your idea. :/ @awec: Which would be fine... if we were making a FF Tactics style game. We're not.
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Post by Orange Bran on Nov 15, 2018 21:29:02 GMT
Taking Talia as example, if we go with the classic GS system she would have 2 or 3 types of weapons accesibles and 11 mage-type classes, so she will be mostly limited to magic DPS. If we go with an everyone gets everything system she could use every weapon and she could have acces to any number of classes in multiples of eleven. As to how would she access to each tree of classes I have a few ideas, but that's for a different thread.
but I rather have each character able to change between 33 really different classes than 11 more or less similars. Here I was thinking about the 11 mage-type classes instead of 33 (or 22 or 44, whatever) mixing mages, warriors and anything in between.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 15, 2018 22:07:59 GMT
You're making some massive assumptions here about mechanics we've yet to discuss and work on. Here's an idea: Assume that we're going to address those issues in the class/psynergy thread, where they belong. I have a massive freaking spreadsheet full of ideas for entire classes and categorizations for spells and an entire method for creating a wide and varied set of classes that you're just assuming that I, as a Designer working on this very issue for well over ten years, cannot possibly have been thinking about.
So no. Not every class will be magic DPS. If that is your assumption, then:
A: You're forgetting that she's a controller unit, not a DPS unit - the Venus guy is the DPS. B: When you change classes in a golden sun game, it changes the role you play in the party, so even if she WAS the Magic DPS, she's instantly NO LONGER magic DPS the second she changes class C: That Basic, Tri-Element, and Tetra element classes are going to behave widely differently from one another anyways, assuming the vote doesn't go crazy by saturday. D: You change classes mid-battle in GS, so if weapons are tied to class, we're going to have a very big problem when the class change goes into a class that can't equip what the character is using.
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Post by sylvanelite on Nov 15, 2018 23:01:14 GMT
Had a brief discussion with WitchRolina on discord. Posting the gist (pro's/con's) here for the sake of transparency:
Option 1: assign weapons to characters PRO - the way GS does it, so we're familiar with it - can leverage community work from other GS CON - GS's weapon placement is poor - Most weapons go unused in the game
Option 2: assign weapons to classes PRO - gives weapons more flexibility CON - not the way GS does things - class changing is a serious issue
My thoughts, class changing is the issue with classes. I don't have a problem steering away from GS nor do I think that making things "FF like" is a problem, but class swapping is an issue. Classes are based on Djinn, so for example, using a summon can change your class. This has usability problems, not just in battle, but also when acquiring Djinn or needing to set a class to solve puzzles. We don't want weapons to drop off mid battle, nor do we want people to be forced into the menu too often. Unless there's a good solution, I think we can just dodge the problem by sticking to GS's mechanics.
Additionally, I still think we should be focusing on gameplay. For me, I'm personally indifferent on the way weapons are assigned as long as we have good usage out of the weapons we get. This is not as trivial as people are making it out to be.
Now, for my thoughts beyond what was said on discord:
Here's my proposal. We give each character access to weapon types. We limit weapon types to a small number, so that we can get good pacing.
We then use forging to get good longevity.
A good example of Golden Sun's weapon problems is the Elven Rapier (Vorpal Slash). It's both strong, and looks cool. It has a good feel to it. But its life in the game is limited. If we want people to actually see weapons like this, we face a tradeoff, give them to the player when the weapons are too strong, and get good use out of them, or make them more balanced and face them being obsoleted by weapons that aren't as cool, forcing players to use weapons in the order we assign them.
What we could do is add a system where you can dismantle the unleash from the weapon, and re-apply it to another weapon later on. That way the player can pick their own unleashes to use. With some pallet swapping, we could add something like "take this weapon to the lighthouse to get Mars version of the unleash".
I'm just spitballing ideas, but that's what I would do to modernise GS's weapon system.
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PK_Water
Writer
Already Half Xehanort
Posts: 27
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Post by PK_Water on Nov 16, 2018 7:54:54 GMT
I am personally a fan of this new idea of having classes decide which weapons to use, not the characters. That was, the majority of the weapons which would otherwise go unused to become secondary weapons which means they'd be used more. Maybe when you switch to a class which can't use the weapon, a little menu appears on which you can equip a different weapon. This allows for more strategy and inventory management, if the inventory is different from Golden Sun of course. (Which it is, right? That's one thing the games didn't do well in my opinion, so unless Dark Dawn did something neat with it...)
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