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Post by thrypuro on Nov 19, 2018 12:08:02 GMT
Hello, you should stick with the base 6 from gs, I feel then it won't be very clusterphobic and people can take their time with it. My suggestion will be to divide them further. I would categorise then into 3 seperate just like armours it should be like Light, Heavy and mystic. Since this would be logical just and easy to understand. I mean it's not that complex systems shouldn't be a thing, you can make the existing types have their gimmicks. If i were to categorise them: Heavy: Axes, Lances Lights: Swords, Clubs Mystic: Staves, Tome Additionally, you can make a subcategory for them, Axes: Handaxes, Hammer, Great axe, short axe Lances: Javelins(Throwables like spear), Heavy lances, short Lances and normal lances Swords: Great sword, Katanas, Sword, blades Clubs: ugh too lazy you get the idea i hope Staves: Damage staves ( can be used and attack the enemy and deal damage), heal staves only purpose healing (Healing cost less psynergy and psynergy restore every turn more), Magic Staves (Staves which gives psynergy spells to the adept can be only used if it is equiped) Tomes: These tomes can be used by the mage of the party to unleash spells every turn ofcourse damage ain't broken, they can also access other djinn attack (basic ones at begining), if the user's tome matches their type they get a elemental boost. Gives psynergy boost to characters. Finally, the last question how to handle powerful weapons,you could make 9 weapons for all weapons and their subcategories. I haven't worked on this idea well so feel free change anything.
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Post by Orange Bran on Nov 19, 2018 12:24:03 GMT
Okay, answering the first question here is my idea for a weapon chart:
| Jupiter (Warrior?)
| Venus (Rogue) | Talia (Tactician)
| Mars (Paladin) | Magic | Mace | Wand | Grimoire | Glaive | Damage | Battle Axe | Caestus | Rapier | Sword & Shield | Tank | Flail
| Scimitar | Doppelhänder | Bastard Sword | Support | Warhammer | Chakram
| Staff | Lance |
Each weapon fits each character's job and gives them a variety of design. The first column is just representative, It could be for differents stats, unleashes, psynergy changes or whatever.
Other possible weapons: Dagger, Scythe, Nunchaku, Knuckle, Bow, Sai.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 19, 2018 13:58:47 GMT
Let's leave any class-related discussion to the class threads. We need to keep this discussion purely based on traditional equipment, divorced from any ideas that have a significant effect on other aspects of design such as the class system. thrypuro: We're trying to make a Golden Sun fangame - this weapon list, however, seems to be completely divorced from the original games. What's your reasoning behind abandoning the original six weapon types in favor of these?
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Post by thrypuro on Nov 19, 2018 18:46:33 GMT
Let's leave any class-related discussion to the class threads. We need to keep this discussion purely based on traditional equipment, divorced from any ideas that have a significant effect on other aspects of design such as the class system. thrypuro: We're trying to make a Golden Sun fangame - this weapon list, however, seems to be completely divorced from the original games. What's your reasoning behind abandoning the original six weapon types in favor of these? Since this is a successor, and didn't feel like the old games had any impact with weapons (except unleash) it is always been mindlessly chosing a weapon with the highest damage output regardless of side effects like curse which still a joke. Besides it's 2018 we have a standard for rpgs, we should abandon the old systems which hasn't aged well with well adopt new ones.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 19, 2018 19:15:04 GMT
You're talking about something addressed directly by goals 3 and 4 of this thread. We're on discussing goal 1. With that context in mind, why those six weapons?
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Post by thrypuro on Nov 19, 2018 19:48:17 GMT
Oh okay my reasoning for them, right before replying to that we should examine the similarities with what I proposed and the orginal, also i made a mistake saying the dividing weapons into light, heavy and Mystic. I meant to divide their subcatagories into those three. Also said clubs instead of maces. Swords: In my proposal i divided it to blades, Great Sword (which i meant long sword or twohanded sword), Normal swords and katanas. These exist in the game are classified under the category swords exception being Long swords which is another category, all i am saying is for this section is we put long swords with under the same umbrella and keep it wrt other swords. That way when we devolop swords for the game it's tangible and example we lack long swords we make sword X and give it long sword characteristics.One thing to note here Mystic swords or blades are flame swords, lightning swords etc Axe: Okay this is where i saw the problem, now thinking about it. You see unlike swords axes in the original game i believe are locked to one type i.e Heavy axes. We need to change that, axes aren't just heavy, there are short ones, throwable ones too. I will keep this breif Hand axes: Throwable axes, let's say a tomahawk, light and depends partly with your aim stat i think Hammer: Like Summon nights hammers are awesome weapons or thor smh. I have a reason for every weapon but since it would be very long i decided to get to the point. So why these weapons? They are still very similar to orginal GS games only difference is we are giving other weapons as much as love as swords recieved for it's types. The new types like Lances and Tomes i am not very sure we could always replace them for the original anks and bows. All i say is we just reorganize and makes new additions to the system. Ofcourse the damage and other factors arent counted here.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 19, 2018 20:54:24 GMT
Ah, gotcha. I suppose I should explain the 12 types I suggested as well.
Sword - Swords refer to strength-based swords specifically. Your broadswords, zwihanders, etc. Spears - polearms in general. Spears, lances, pikes, naginata, etc Axes - Hand axes, battle axes, etc. Hammers - Hammers, Warhammers, etc.
Blades - Dexterity-based blades specifically. For weapons like Rapiers and Katanas, where the idea in gaming is that finesse and precision is more important than raw strength. Bows - Shortbows, long bows, crossbows, etc. Maces - Maces, mauls, clubs, etc. Martial - Knuckles, Claws, Tonfa, Nunchaku, and similar weapons by martial artists (Sveta's weapon classes merged into one).
Staves - Staves, Rods, Wands, etc. These are spellcasting implements classically associated with attack magic. Symbols - Ankhs, Crosses, and other religiously associated staff-like implements, classically associated with healing and support magic. Scythes - Scythes, Sickles, etc. Spellcasting implements used for their symbolic meanings, associated with indirect magic, such as ailments and debuffs. Daggers - Daggers, throwing knives, athames, etc. Associated with ritual magic.
I'd have to say for my set, hammers and maces are most easily rolled into the same class. I'd probably say that hammers should be rolled into maces in that case, because maces did exist in the originals and thus the familiarity would probably be a boon. The trouble would then been the need to replace that slot. As for why hammers there... Mostly Skyrim. It had swords-axes-hammers as its 2-handed trio.
As for my case with including control:
Offense is about inflicting additional damage Defense is about taking less damage
But there should be more to combat than just direct offense and defense. I like the idea of a weapon class built around indirect spells, such as ailments, debuffs, and other maledictions. This is the idea behind the control weapon class, to help assist in battlefield control.
In my gradient soul system, I also make a distinction between Light and Heavy versions of weapons (usually 1-handed and 2-handed), in order to account for things like dual-wielding and two-handing. I don't think we should worry about that, though - probably better if we keep things simpler and focus on easily to understand on the player, rather than trying to introduce a whole complex set of mechanics.
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Post by thrypuro on Nov 19, 2018 21:35:51 GMT
Hello again, I like what you suggested it but I do think you overextended the options for 4 characters. I don't forsee a swordmaster picking up a hammer smashing anytime soon. You see 6 is reasonable, it's also fine for some to have 3 types available. The types i do not feel you don't need are the scythe (eventhough it sounds awesome): Your theory about these ailments giving weapons are basically psynergy status spells, and their gimmicks don't feel appropriate for a scyther. Additionally, i am not against the ailment thing but I am in favor of it just they should in the catagories of staves or anks. Also these ailments are temporary + the party member will be useless in physical damage dealing if only gimmick is giving ailments. Ailment spamming is annoying for the player and the AI, i don't want to play whole of Pokemon red with paralysis status. Hammers and Maces: I don't see them being same class (also don't remember hammers in skyrim :P). The anatomy of a hammer and an axe are more similar when put side by side compared to a Mace. And i don't say warrior character shouldn't use mace, they can use the heavy weapons of all categories (except magical ones) hammers are in axes. Martial: I read on your characters list, are they all humans? I don't remember DD very well so idk. I would make the argument here that you don't bring a sword to a gun fight haha. It all depends on the party, if it is 8 go for it. 4? Nah Overall, I can't say for certain that how this will play out. Speaking of skyrim or rpgs of modern era, they usually limit their weapon types to familiar ground. I say we stick with orginal 2 gs games and expand on the existing weapons (exception bows?) and new types like hammer.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 19, 2018 21:58:31 GMT
Literally every character who can wield longswords in the Golden Sun can wield maces, axes, and blades as well. That pretty much invalidates your whole opening statement, especially if hammers are folded into either axes or maces. No matter the interpretation, whether you categorized based on weapon anatomy or damage type, existing canon proves your statement false.
As for your remaining arguments... I'm sorry, I can't say I agree. You seem to be viewing a lot of these from a tremendously different angle than I am. I'm wanting to take golden sun a base, then add onto it. After all, that's the goal of this project. You seem to be wanting to replace what's there with an entirely different system based on your personal preferences.
We're making a spiritual successor fan game, not a completely original work made from scratch. Please keep that in mind when it comes to design.
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Post by thrypuro on Nov 19, 2018 22:24:54 GMT
Literally every character who can wield longswords in the Golden Sun can wield maces, axes, and blades as well. That pretty much invalidates your whole opening statement, especially if hammers are folded into either axes or maces. No matter the interpretation, whether you categorized based on weapon anatomy or damage type, existing canon proves your statement false. As for your remaining arguments... I'm sorry, I can't say I agree. You seem to be viewing a lot of these from a tremendously different angle than I am. I'm wanting to take golden sun a base, then add onto it. After all, that's the goal of this project. You seem to be wanting to replace what's there with an entirely different system based on your personal preferences. We're making a spiritual successor fan game, not a completely original work made from scratch. Please keep that in mind when it comes to design. Wow first you are not in any way making an orginal game by changing around couple of outdated sytems, when you ask for suggestion they gonna give their opinion or preferences. Successors or sequel for that matter should keep the existing design philosophy while also adding on the orginal and scrapping the disliked. You might as well make a clone gs game if you are not willing to change these small components. The opening statement was bit sarcastic was meant as an analogy of the absurdity :kappa: But yea these are what makes sense to me. We don't know what camelot were thinking when they designed these. So you have no way to just assume this is how it always should be i.e we don't know what's right to add or remove. Adding onto something won't always help,i believe changing around pre established norms will what push this forward. But eh you are right we see things differently, This got a lot of potential good luck.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 19, 2018 23:21:46 GMT
Yes. That's rather my point. We're NOT making an original game.
You literally just shot your whole argument in the foot with your opening statement by supporting mine. :/
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Post by Falgor on Nov 20, 2018 8:03:17 GMT
On the one hand, I kinda feel like having 12 weapon types could be a lot of work (it doesn't necessarily scares me and I'd be up to help create a lot of them). On the other hand, I absolutely do want to see more weapon types because I always felt like Golden Sun could have more diversity on that part (I like swords, buuuut... I felt like everything was swords pretty much) and Dark Dawn was a bit better about that, but still not enough imo. And while this is not exactly a point for Project Flint itself, I don't forget that eventually we could make a bigger game, with potentially more characters to use various weapon types that we would then need. I especially find the Scythes, Daggers and various Martial "hand-to-hand weapons" types to be extremely interesting. Bows are also pretty much a must. I saw throwing knives in there, so I wonder if Shurikens would fit in "Daggers", but I think it might be a stretch. (A bit off-topic here, but since I do like the idea, maybe we could keep those for a one-time use item doing damage? Maybe throwing knives as well since they're a bit different from actual Daggers?) Let's say I agree with WitchRolina 's system of weapons and we put Maces and Hammers in the same category, I do have two possible suggestions to replace that slot that I feel would be original, fun and can fit: The first one being Whips (as a side note, the Unleashes write themselves: wild creatures appearing as if you tamed them with the whip). The second one, being probably more weird and probably feels less "Golden Sun", would be Boomerangs. Both would fit the "Defense" slot as they're about keeping some safe space between you and an enemy. I also wonder if somehow Flails could fit in an already existing category such as Hammers/Maces? However I find a bit weird to see Spears being in Offense and Martial (hand-to-hand) in what I assume is Defense. I'd switch those two, which gives: Swords - Swords refer to strength-based swords specifically. Your broadswords, zwihanders, etc. Axes - Hand axes, battle axes, etc. Hammers - Hammers, Warhammers, Maces, Clubs, etc. (Flails?) Martial - Knuckles, Claws, Tonfa, Nunchaku, and similar weapons by martial artists (Sveta's weapon classes merged into one). Blades - Dexterity-based blades specifically. For weapons like Rapiers and Katanas, where the idea in gaming is that finesse and precision is more important than raw strength. Bows - Shortbows, long bows, crossbows, etc. (Blowpipes?) Spears - Polearms in general. Spears, Lances, Tridents, Pikes, Halberds, Naginata, etc. Whips OR Boomerangs - Pretty straightforward I guess? Staves - Staves, Rods, Wands, etc. These are spellcasting implements classically associated with attack magic. Symbols - Ankhs, Crosses, and other religiously associated staff-like implements, classically associated with healing and support magic. Scythes - Scythes, Sickles, etc. Spellcasting implements used for their symbolic meanings, associated with indirect magic, such as ailments and debuffs. Daggers - Daggers, Athames, Sai, (throwing knives?) etc. Associated with ritual magic.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 20, 2018 12:18:17 GMT
Depending on interpretation, I could see Flails fitting either in maces or in whips. I mean, if Castlevania can get away with calling a morning star a whip, why not us, right?
I'd like to know why you had spears as mixed weapons, while martial weapons are physical. Could you explain the reasoning to me?
The reason I had them sorted where they were:
Maces were in mixed because Mia, Sheba, and Rief could equip them. I imagine it was inspired by Clerics from D&D, who are often depicted using maces. Spears were physical, because I usually see them as the iconic weapon of a physical tank. It's the weapon of the phalanx, allowing them to hoist a shield and attack at the same time. Martial Arts had the whole Ki/Chi thing going on in GS. Having them mixed was kind of an expression of that. Sort of, mixing the physical and the magical together as a thematic concept. Plus, mind over matter is a common theme with martial arts, and psynergy's shot for psychic energy. Mind + Body = martial weapons, more or less.
That's my angle. I'd love to hear yours - hell, I'd like to see where everyone else would sort their weapon types and why. Should help us narrow down where we ultimately place things.
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Post by Taz on Nov 20, 2018 18:52:37 GMT
If anything, I think that the weapon variety should be handled by the Writing/Worldbuilding people. The question we should be asking is "What weapon or weapons are each of our heroes known for using?" For one, it's looking like Talia is going to be written with a spear, and if Talia is falling into the mage archetype, it is therefore our job to design spears that are appropriate for magic-users.
That being said, I understand the necessity for both flexibility and variety, so it is my proposal that weapon proficiencies come in two categories: signature, and flex. Following the model of the original Golden Sun games, mage characters will gain access to one of each, while warrior characters get two of each. Signature proficiencies get decided by the character designers, and the flex proficiencies get added by us to make weapon progression feel more natural and varied (as opposed to just Spear 1, Spear 2, Spear 3, Artifact Spear . . .).
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 20, 2018 19:52:42 GMT
Couple things:
First, we are the worldbuilding people. Designers, Writers, and Artists are all tasked with building the world.
Second, anything that has an effect on mechanics is something designers specifically need to work on. That means weapons are something we have to look at.
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