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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 16, 2018 14:13:21 GMT
Classically speaking, fog (which falls into steam/vapor) and plants are associated with dark and scary things, themes associated with darkness, while gemstones and ice have been associated with things like majesty and purity, themes associated with light.
Gonna be honest with you - this recurring "but plants are light" thing in particular frustrates me. Perhaps people say this because the modern regressive political viewpoint of "Nature == Good, Technology == Bad", but more likely it's because "but plants only grow in the light". But of course they do - you can't live where there's no food either. They literally feed on it - converting it into energy via photosynthesis.
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Post by Falgor on Nov 17, 2018 7:46:02 GMT
Classically speaking, fog (which falls into steam/vapor) and plants are associated with dark and scary things, themes associated with darkness, while gemstones and ice have been associated with things like majesty and purity, themes associated with light. Gonna be honest with you - this recurring "but plants are light" thing in particular frustrates me. Perhaps people say this because the modern regressive political viewpoint of "Nature == Good, Technology == Bad", but more likely it's because "but plants only grow in the light". But of course they do - you can't live where there's no food either. They literally feed on it - converting it into energy via photosynthesis. Yup, like I said in my previous post your explanation does make sense as well. =) Well, in a way for Ice it's still a bit of a problem to me because if I agree on the "purity" aspect of it 100%, both Sol and Luna are technically light (The Moon being a reflection of the Sun's light if we take IRL stuff into account) so I don't feel like it's out of place in Luna. However as pure as Ice is, it melts under the Sun so it would feel much less in its place under Sol imo. Now I can admit that the other 3 in the Luna fundament have relatively negative connotations, but they kinda had to be somewhere and I generally went with what was most logical to me (we can all have different interpretations of things after all). In my take, Gemstones are supposedly included into "Earth" (I noted them as "Crystals" initially), which depends on the Stella/ Pure Element fundament so it does have that idea of purity in a way. My reason for Plants being under Sol isn't the "nature is good, technology is bad" thing though, since you could consider my "Mankind" fundament to be a sort of "technology" one and it's not meant to have particularly "bad" connotations. I'd say it's more that people are used to the sun and plants being related in franchises like Pokémon (The Abilities like Chlorophyll or Harvest working under the sun, Sunflora, etc.), so breaking that pattern miiiight feel weird to the players in the end. I'm not an expert in making video games, but that's always an important thing to consider. Though from a philosophical standpoint, you could very well consider each of these as 100% neutral: If Volcanic activity is often bad for humans, it also serves several purposes. Same for Decay/Rot/Death and many others. The only one that really has that totally negative feel to it would be Curse/Disease imo. In the end, I think focusing on the whole Dark/Light aspect of things is well, way too Manichean. Many of these "categories" could have spells both "positive" and "negative" imo. Maybe I missed something but each square in these tables doesn't have to fit only ONE word/type of spell, do they? Unless it is for pure gameplay/descriptive considerations, in which case you could reduce my previous table to something like:
| Venus | Mars
| Jupiter
| Mercury | Stella | Earth1 | Flame | Wind2 | Water3 | Sol | Plants | Explosions4 | Celestial5 | Rainbow | Luna | Decay6 | Corrosive | Curses7 | Ice | Mankind | Metal | Heat | Electricity | Vapor8 |
1 Includes Rocks/Gemstones, Ground/Earthquakes2 Includes Gravity3 Includes Pressure4 Includes Volcanic5 Includes Light, Lasers, etc.6 Includes Rotting, Death, Sand7 Includes Disease8 Includes Steam, Fog, CloudsAnd this list could be "upgraded" if people have ideas for different spells I imagine. Maybe Heat could be replaced with "Taming" spells and Heat spells would go under Flame, Idk.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 17, 2018 16:38:01 GMT
Hmm, that's pretty close. I'd change Mankind to Terra or something like that to fit the themes of the other fundaments, and Stella to Astra because I just like it better aesthetically (seriously, why such a drastically different etymology for the plural, latin?). I'd swap curses with Miasma, as I think we can do more with that. Apart from that... I think this interpretation works. What do you think? It should give us both a full 4x3 and 4x4 table...
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capy
New Member
Posts: 24
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Post by capy on Nov 17, 2018 19:07:09 GMT
I like all of the proposed elements with a few exceptions. Rainbow is pretty weak as far as an element goes. In terms of Mercury I also say that some Venom/Poison should be included. I'd say remove Rainbow, move Vapor to Sol and give Mankind (though I like Terra more as a term) Poison. Or move Ice to Sol for order and make Poison Luna. That would also give Luna a sort of identity as a group of spells that often give status ailments.
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Post by firedjinn on Nov 17, 2018 20:49:09 GMT
I like the proposed setup above, but also quite like the 4x3 system WitchRolina proposed on the first page. Other than that, I can't think of much else to contribute. Plants as Luna!Venus (with maybe Crystals as Sol!Venus?) and Ice as Luna!Mercury sounds good.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 17, 2018 20:54:05 GMT
Problem with Vapor is that you can't justify a light-based attack with it. It's why I prefer Ice for Sol, and the interpretation being Order. Water can also cover the poison aspect all on its own. If I were to reinterpret it:
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Astra | Stone | Flame | Air | Water | Sol | Crystal | Explosive | Celestial | Ice | Luna | Rot | Corrosive | Miasma | Steam | Terra | Plant | Heat | Lightning | Aura |
Here's my justification: Astra = Pure forms of the elements. Sol = forms that can produce light. Crystal Prisms, Explosive rays of light, "space lasers", Ice-based prismatic light Luna = Forms based on an Erosive Cloud. A cloud of rot and decay, a cloud of acid, a cloud of miasma, and a cursed cloud of fog can all fit in this interpretation. Terra = Forms of life. Plants to represent the growth of the body. Heat to represent the passions of the heart. Lightning to represent the acuity of the Mind. Aura to represent the mysticism of the Soul. What do y'all think of this interpretation?
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Post by Orange Bran on Nov 17, 2018 23:23:32 GMT
okay, taking ideas from everyone this is what makes most sense to me:
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury
| Order | Crystal | Redox | Celestial
| Ice
| Pure | Earth | Fire | Air | Water
| Chaos | Plant | Explosion | Electricity | Steam
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| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Light | Crystal | Fire | Electricity | Aura | Order | Earth | Redox | Celestial | Ice | Chaos | Plant | Explosion | Air | Steam | Dark | Rot | Radiation | Miasma | water |
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Light | Prism | Heat | Laser | Aura
| Order | Crystal | Redox | Celestial
| Ice | Pure | Earth | Fire | Air | Water | Chaos | Plant | Explosion | Electricity | Steam | Dark | Rot
| Radiation
| Miasma
| Cold |
I liked the ideas of Anggel a lot and I tried to be really consistent with the three charts. There is also the weird 4x4 chart based on elements, but didn't seem to have a good reception.
I went with Ice for Luna cause Ice is cold and Steam is hot.
Also, I don't like the idea of having Heat without Cold, It feels weird.
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Edited with another approach.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 18, 2018 0:12:34 GMT
*googles Redox* Huh, you learn something new every day. Celestial was referring to moves such as Astral Blast, Light Surge, Void Beam, and Shining Star. I don't think Electromagnatism is a good name for it because it sounds like something that would call in the domain of Lightning, but I can't figure a better name for it than "celestial". I also see issues of redundancy between Lightning and Plasma, as well as Ice and Cold. The only remaining issue is that the 4x4 table doesn't seem to follow consistent patterns - they may be given names based on celestial entities, but what do they govern? We can't just say "But the sun is hot", because so is Mercury, yet it's given water. Venus is known for its runaway greenhouse effect, not the earth and ground. Mars isn't associated with fire, what it it being barren and cold. If the elements are symbolically named, the fundaments have to be as well. We've got to be consistent. That's why I defined it as: Pure Light Dark Life with my 4x4 grid.
Edit: After brainstorming with Orange Bran over Discord DMs, we came up with the idea of a two-pair approach for 4x4, in case the Pure+Trio doesn't work out:
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | [non-elemental] | Light | Plant | Flame | Lightning | Aurora | Light | Dark | Decay | Redox | Void | Water | Dark | Order | Stone | Heat | Force | Ice | Metal | Chaos | Crystal | Explosions | Wind | Steam | Sound |
So, the thought process here is: Light - Sun - Sol Dark - Moon - Luna Order - Earth - Terra Chaos - Heavens - Astra The pairs being Sun and Moon, and Heavens and Earth. This also means that we want to try and build forms in pairs. I relent to Plants being Light here only as a representation of Life, paired with Rot representing Death. I don't like it, but it works symbolically. For Flame Corrosive, I paired them as sources of burns (fire and acid), one producing light and one not. For mercury, Aurora is the ice-prism-rainbow-lasers thing, while Water is dark due to the "darkness of the abyss". So one is a phenomenon of light, and the other goes so deep light disappears. Ice and Steam make logical counterparts as Order and Chaos. And I have some non-elemental forms in case we want to do something fun with items, which don't have to have elemental attacks. I only have some issues with Mars Order, Jupiter Dark, and Jupiter Order. Anyone got some suggestions?
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 18, 2018 4:16:15 GMT
This post is to be linked to the poll. It is a collection of each of the systems in the thread. 4x3 Systems: These systems are specifically designed to incorporate the fundaments from Dark Dawn in addition to the four pure forms of the elements. What those forms are and how they're categorized is largely up to how Sol and Luna are interpreted - literally, symbolically, or a fusion of both. WitchRolina : Fusion of Both
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Sol | Crystal | Explosive | Celestial | Ice | Astra | Stone | Flame | Air | Water | Luna | Plant | Redox | Lightning | Steam |
Where: Sol is Light + Order Astra is pure elements (references elemetal stars) Luna is Dark + Chaos Orange Bran : Symbolic Interpretation
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Sol | Crystal | Redox | Celestial | Ice | Astra | Stone | Flame | Air | Water | Luna | Plant | Explosive | Lightning | Steam |
Where: Sol is Order Astra is pure elements Luna is Chaos Third Option? : Literal Interpretation
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Sol | Plant | Explosive | Lightning | Steam | Astra | Stone | Flame | Air | Water | Luna | Decay | Redox | Miasma | Ice |
Where: Sol is Light Astra is pure elements Luna is Dark
4x4 Systems: The strength of a 4x4 system is obvious - we can have a different set for each adept on the team. This would ensure each adept brings something different to the table. There's less room for interpretation compared to 4x3, but there's still plenty room for flexibility with the right creative approach. Unlike 4x3 systems, the approach here requires a different setup than the others. Either a Pure + 3, or two sets of two. Falgor : Pure + 3 Approach
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Sol | Plants | Explosive | Celestial | Aurora | Luna | Decay | Redox | Miasma | Ice | Astra | Stone | Flame | Air | Water | Terra | Metal | Heat | Lightning | Steam |
Where: Sol is Light, thematic reflection of Mars Luna is Dark, thematic reflection of Mercury Astra is Pure forms, thematic reflection of Jupiter Terra is Mankind/Life forms, thematic reflection of Venus WitchRolina : Pure + 3 approach (variant of Falgor 's setup)
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Sol | Crystal | Explosive | Celestial | Ice | Luna | Decay | Redox | Miasma | Steam | Astra | Stone | Flame | Air | Water | Terra | Plant | Heat | Lightning | Aurora |
Where: Sol is Order Luna is Chaos Astra is Pure Terra is Life Orange Bran : Two Pair approach
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Sol | Crystal | Fire | Lightning | Aurora | Luna | Decay | Heat | Miasma | Water | Astra | Plant | Explosive | Air | Steam | Terra | Stone | Redox | Celestial | Ice |
Where: Sol is Light Luna is Dark Astra is Chaos Terra is Order WitchRolina : Two Pair approach
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Sol | Plant | Flame | Lightning | Aurora | Luna | Decay | Redox | Void | Water | Astra | Crystal | Explosion | Air | Steam | Terra | Stone | Heat | Force | Ice |
Where: Sol is Light Luna is Dark Astra is Chaos Terra is Order
4x5 Systems: The fundaments from Dark Dawn have two possible interpretations - the literal of Light and Dark, as well as the symbolic of Order and Chaos. The 4x5 system approach applies both at the same time. The strength is that it allows adepts to be more clearly distinct from one another in style than the others allow, however it comes at the cost of a lack of flexibility of interpretation within the aspects themselves. Orange Bran :
| Venus | Mars | Jupiter | Mercury | Sol | Prism | Heat | Laser | Aurora | Terra | Crystal | Redox | Celestial | Ice | Aether | Stone | Flame | Air | Water | Astra | Plant | Explosive | Lightning | Steam | Luna | Decay | Heat | Miasma | Cold |
Where: Sol is Light Terra is Order Aether is Pure Forms Astra is Chaos Luna is Dark Standard names used in place of originals when applicable for the sake of consistent comparisons: Electricity → Lightning Rainbow, Aura → Aurora Vapor → Steam Rot → Decay Disease/Curses → Miasma Corrosive → Redox Radiation → Heat
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Post by Falgor on Nov 18, 2018 5:38:54 GMT
Hmm, that's pretty close. I'd change Mankind to Terra or something like that to fit the themes of the other fundaments, and Stella to Astra because I just like it better aesthetically (seriously, why such a drastically different etymology for the plural, latin?). I'd swap curses with Miasma, as I think we can do more with that. Apart from that... I think this interpretation works. What do you think? It should give us both a full 4x3 and 4x4 table... I do like the Terra and Astra names. I feel like Terra fits the "Mankind" fundament idea I had because Mankind inhabits earth. Miasma sounds a bit dirty, but whether it's Curses or that, I'd be okay with honestly. I personally also had "Diseases" as a name for it, it might be a bit too generic Idk, but hey it doesn't hurt to say it. =) Other than that I'd personally stay pretty adamant on Ice being Luna!Mercury and Plants being Sol!Venus for my interpretation of the 4x4 table, sorry about that. :') Edit: I was a bit confused at first but the names chosen by WitchRolina all fit my last table and the concepts featured in it so all is good. =) Aurora is another good name btw.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 18, 2018 15:07:09 GMT
It's mostly to compare it to other tables. Even some of my suggestions got names changed. :P
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Post by Taz on Nov 19, 2018 22:11:54 GMT
In the name of keeping things as simple as possible, I don't see the need for implementing fundaments at all (he says, hypocritically, having designed a Zodiac-based card game that uses Astrological Qualities as an important determinant of gameplay).
That being said, if it's more along the lines of unobtrusive background flavor text than anything with an actual mechanical implementation, I wouldn't mind the 4x3 system.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 19, 2018 23:34:34 GMT
Technically, even the original Golden Sun employs a system like this. It's just informal and inconsistantly applied.
You could call it a Pseudo-4x2 system. Each element has two forms you can cast in:
Venus has stone and plant Mars has flame and explosions Jupiter has wind and lightning Mercury has water and ice
However, in the game, these elements take on other forms as well, just not as straight up spells.
Acid appears as a mars unleash and in a few acid-based monster attacks (acid bite, acid sting, acid breath), all of which are Mars. Crystal appears as the Crystallux Summon, and a djinn that goes by that name. Celestial appears as various unleashes (Shooting Star, Void Beam, Light Surge) Steam appears as some mercury unleashes (stun cloud) and some djinn names (mist, steam, fog)
So what is a fundament? Nobody freaking knows. "Dark Dawn be weird, yo" is basically our best answer to the question. However, we have taken that term that Dark Dawn introduced, and reinterpreted it to mean "forms the elements take".
4x3 basically takes the forms that showed up in the Golden Sun games, both directly castable and implied through other sources, and just codifies it in a system we can use for internal consistency.
4x4 has the goal of having different forms for each adept, to help them stand out from one another better.
4x5 takes both the literal interpretation of Sol/Luna as Light/Dark, and the symbolic interpretation of Sol/Luna as Order/Chaos, going by their appearance in Dark Dawn, to assign these forms in a way that lets you have things like "light adepts" and "Dark Adepts". Here, the idea is that the "Dark Adept" is merely someone who uses the dark-aligned forms of the elements. Basically, it gives the Tuaparang credibility by giving them an out that lets them not violate lore.
That's the gist. I know it's kind of confusing, but that's because a lot of terms are being used for internal development consistency, and were vague even when introduced in the Golden Sun games themselves.
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Post by Taz on Nov 20, 2018 3:06:29 GMT
That's nice and all, but legally speaking, we have no need to be consistent with Golden Sun's lore. :P
If this is just an internal method of developing thematically-appropriate spells and abilities, then neither 4x3 nor 4x4 would be particularly obtrusive. 4x5 still seems like a bit much, though, and runs the risk of losing thematic focus within any given column.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 20, 2018 12:43:43 GMT
I actually think the group agrees, and that's why 4x4 works so well. It's based on what golden sun does, but it's done in a totally different way, and is done methodically instead of randomly.
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