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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 19, 2018 21:04:06 GMT
PK_Water: I would recognize the stat system from Fire Emblem, a game series I've played the last several entries in. ;) Okay, so I'm starting to notice some trends. Correct me if I'm wrong on here: Generally agreed to be tied to the characters: A stat for a character's health A stat for expending energy needed for spells An offense stat for physical blows An offense stat for magical attacks A defense stat for physical blows A defense stat for magical attacks A stat determining speed A stat called luck, which is either control resistance (as in the original games), critical hit/unleash rate, or both. Elemental stats are generally agreed to need: An offense modifier for each element A defense modifier for each element Stats factored in in ways other than the above (possibly equipment based): A regeneration stat for health A regeneration stat for energy A stat governing accuracy modification A stat governing evasion modification A stat for augmenting critical hit rate (and unleash rate, depending on choices made in the Weapons thread) A stat for augmenting unleash rate (assuming the above option doesn't govern both) Does that seem right to you guys? Am I missing anything?
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Post by Orange Bran on Nov 19, 2018 23:27:12 GMT
That seems all except for the constitution, but I think we need to simplify this. How do we decide which ones we use? Or do we use all?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2018 23:30:41 GMT
more polls
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 20, 2018 0:16:27 GMT
I want to point something out. Our changes to Golden Sun's stats are:
+2 Core Stats
-4 Elemental Stats
+2 or 3 Auxiliary Stats
For a net gain of... 0 or 1.
We're removing Element Levels (four stats there) because those were mostly used for determining classes in the original game. We're using a different method, but for the same result. The other uses for element level were... trivial, and better accomplished via elemental power and resistance.
We added a magic version of Attack and Defense by general agreement. Mages were just low-tier in Golden Sun, because spell never got stronger the way physical attacks did. What's more, warriors could do everything mages did, but better. Class Lines like Swordsman, Crusader, and Paladin were Warrior Healer classes that could survive notably better than every mage healer other than Angel Mia. This gives mages more options, bringing them up to the level of warriors.
Crits and Unleashes may or may not be separated out. People tend to want to keep that as a stat equipment can boost. Accuracy and Evasion are stats that many people have suggested, sometimes as a core stat, sometimes not. I'm putting it in auxiliary because we can express these entirely via equipment with accuracy/evasion increasing gear.
So... I don't think it's that much more complicated at all, if I'm gonna be honest. It's roughly the same.
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Post by Taz on Nov 20, 2018 2:53:30 GMT
Something to think critically about with regards to accuracy/evasion/critical/unleash rates is that, so far as I am aware, absolutely none of those apply to the magic system. Therefore, if we are not careful and overbalance our warriors, mages could easily wind up being the OP business in our game. Furthermore, if we are making magic attack and defense stats, we should ask ourselves why we're not making magic crit rate, or magic evasion, and therefore whether the physical versions of those stats need to be in the game at all.
Also I'm going to come in here with a bit of a radical suggestion: what if we did each element with a single "affinity" stat, that not only raised your attack and resistance for that element, but also lowered resistance for the opposing element? Think about it: in the original Golden Sun, attacking Mars Bad Guy with Mars-based attacks was not very effective, but he was weak to Mercury-based attacks. Only issue I see with this is that it would in some instances encourage shoring up your weakness by equipping Djinn of the opposite element, which is notably not at all punished by the class system we are using.
By the way, I also mentioned this in the Discord, and I know that this isn't Fire Emblem, but one thing I feel that Fire Emblem does very very right in comparison to more or less any other RPG ever, tactical or otherwise, is making effective use of relatively small numbers. Triple-digit numbers are unheard of outside of Accuracy (or extreme scenarios like Bow crits on underleveled Pegasus Knights), and an 11-might weapon is one of the most powerful generics in the game. Basic combat is simply Attack - Defense. Rather than asking why more people don't do this, I'll ask the question why don't we?
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Post by firedjinn on Nov 20, 2018 3:02:15 GMT
I like the idea of a single affinity stat for each element (especially if we go with separate magic attack/defense stats), but not the idea of a lowered resist for opposing elements. That can already be built in to a character's stats, and things could get really complicated with multi-elemental classes. For example, dual-element classes with a pair opposing elements might play really weirdly if the elements canceled out each other's bonuses.
About the numbers: maybe we could try a compromise and keep stat numbers mostly in the double digits? Triple digit stuff does feel cooler when playing though, and it can make that last couple HP really count in battle where an equivalent value in a game with lower numbers might not.
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Post by Taz on Nov 20, 2018 3:31:37 GMT
The entire point to using small numbers is to make each stat point feel like it counts. Whichever way pulls that off the best, I am in favor of.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 20, 2018 12:41:06 GMT
I would disagree. I dislike the idea of accuracy and evasion not affecting magic. That's why delusion was such a garbage ailment. If you can dodge focused spells (ex: Magic Ragnarok), it gives reason for delusion to be cast by the player, and to cure it when it's inflicted on you. As far as massive AoE spells go, I've an idea for that:
If a dodge check succeeds for an AoE spell, the location for magnitude reduces by one, and another check is made. If they dodge past the range of the AoE, it's a full dodge. So:
For an AoE 5 attack: Center Target: Foe would take 100% of the spell's damage. If foe dodges, then they check for 80% of the spell's damage. If the foe dodges, then they check for 60% of the spell's damage. If they dodge that, then they take no damage.
There's no official term for this, but I've taken to calling it "Magnitude". Basically, in golden sun, the further from the center target, the less damage people take.
There's Four levels of magnitude in the original games:
Full: Party healing only. No diminishing effects.
High: Most spells. Diminishing pattern is: 10-20-40-60-80-100-80-60-40-20-10
Medium: Summons. Diminishing pattern is: 10-10-20-50-70-100-70-50-20-10-10
Low: Breath attacks. Diminishing pattern is: 10-10-10-20-50-100-50-20-10-10-10
I suggest we tweak things a bit. Using the following patterns:
Full: Party healing only. No diminishing effects.
High: Most spells. Diminishing pattern is: 10-20-40-60-80-100-80-60-40-20-10
Medium: Diminishing pattern is: 10-10-25-50-75-100-75-50-25-10-10 Not sure what we'd assign to this if we're changing how summons work. Open to suggestions!
Low: Breath attacks, AoE Focused attacks (ex: Bow unleashes). Diminishing pattern is: 10-10-10-25-50-100-50-25-10-10-10
Anywho, evasion would push the damage dealt further from the center than the target's original position, and if they get outside the size of the AoE, it's a full evade. This gives evasion a point, and makes delusion not worthless.
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Post by Taz on Nov 20, 2018 17:38:42 GMT
I actually like this idea for AoE spells specifically (even though it reminds me of the actual "Magic Evasion" stat from FFXI, but don't take that to mean anything lol), but what about single-target effects? Are those going to simply be pass/fail like normal attacks? Also, are spells going to be allowed to critical hit (and if so, would that allow off-center targets in AoE attacks to take damage as if they were a step closer to the center of the effect than they actually are)? (Presumably, some Weapon Unleashes would be Magic-based in nature.)
By the way, have we figured out damage formulas yet, or will we start work on those once we decide every stat that is going to be in play here?
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 20, 2018 20:08:43 GMT
That's... a good question. I'd not considered magic being able to crit - maybe it's because of how rare it is in games? Should we allow the crit formula to trigger on spells? I'm not opposed to it, especially if we have the ability to evade it.
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Post by shawnullah on Nov 20, 2018 21:39:25 GMT
I'm reposting this from the Discord chat because I simply want to express that I do not want for this game what Golden Sun did with Psynergy--have it rendered inferior to weapon unleashes and have only one or two psynergies used over all others (said psynergies relying on an Attack stat modifier).
Add a Magic stat and have Djinn of the same element increase the power of similar elemental psynergies by a multiplier determined by how many of them are equipped.
(Straight copy and paste because I'm busy): What I mean by that is, if we had a "Magic" stat, equipping Djinn would increase this stat if the Djinn offered that boost (since in GS, certain Djinn gave specific stat boosts [e.g., +12 HP & +8 SPD] when equipped without changing classes). Taz mentioned that Djinn should enhance Psynergy of their respective element like they did in Golden Sun. I suggested that stacking a Djinn of a certain element would give an increasing multiplier on psynergy of that same element. To prevent mono-elemental classes from being flat-out superior, hybrid classes would give such a considerable buff to the "Magic" stat to make it competitive with the Djinn elemental boost. Naturally, there's still a multiplier boost with the Djinn stacking of hybrid builds. But it, of course, won't match the boon of the mono-builds. For example, a Slayer Isaac would get a 1.7/1.8x boost to Venus psynergy whereas Ninja Isaac would get a 1.2x boost to Venus, Mars, and Jupiter psynergy.
Considering the strength of Ninja/Ronin classes were the psynergies that scaled off of the Attack stat, the Magic increase/growth of that class wouldn't match other hybrid builds now that I think about it.
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Post by shawnullah on Nov 20, 2018 21:45:36 GMT
That's... a good question. I'd not considered magic being able to crit - maybe it's because of how rare it is in games? Should we allow the crit formula to trigger on spells? I'm not opposed to it, especially if we have the ability to evade it. I personally would love to see a crit mage build. To balance this, I suggest a few things: 1. Have the crit multiplier be less than the physical attack crit multiplier. OR 2. Have the critical chance threshold for magic be harder to achieve than the physical attack critical chance. AND 1. For AoE spells, do an individual crit check for each enemy hit by the magic spell.
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Post by WitchRolina on Nov 21, 2018 13:47:56 GMT
I like the idea of AoEs checking for each hit, rather than being a global thing. I think for spells, because golden sun has both physical and traditionally magic spells, that it shouldn't take a hit. Plus, I'm an advocate for spells being able to miss entirely, so considering that you have to spend a resource to cast spells, that's the tradeoff for the higher damage threshold... not counting the free unleashes that the attack command can trigger.
I do also think that if an AoE triggered the Evasion cycle, we should disable the crit check for the rest of the checks. I mean, it makes no sense if you evaded the stronger part of the spell only to be crit by a graze. :/
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Post by Taz on Nov 21, 2018 18:12:31 GMT
Presumably the roll for crit/evade would be the same roll, would it not? That was the assumption I was working with in my prior statements, at any rate, so I'm airing it just in case I'm mistaken.
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capy
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Post by capy on Nov 21, 2018 20:39:09 GMT
I don't think we really need evade as a stat. I think not having it would be better as that gives a certain guarantee to attacks and spells so you can better plan with them and removes some random cheesiness from dodging enemy attacks. It could be a stat starting at 0 that can have percentage boosted based on spells and maybe equipment though. That would also remove the need for accuracy as well.
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