Post by WitchRolina on Nov 12, 2018 2:57:44 GMT
There are two things to talk about here - first, is how to express summons. Second, is how to fuel them.
First, let's detail how Golden Sun handled Summons.
The general formula for summon damage in Golden Sun is:
This is why summons are kinda "meh" vs standard foes, but god tier against bosses. Summon rushing in particular is as strong as it is because of simple math: 9 Djinn x 4 Characters x 3% HP damage per djinn = 108% of the enemies HP gone. This, before factoring in Base Damage and Elemental Modifiers. There are also thematic issues present within Golden Sun that are shared with basically every JRPG out there. In the name of saving the world, the heroes annihilate continents, because it was totally necessary in order to do 200 damage to that snail. Needless to say, there has to be a very, very strong suspension of disbelief going on.
Another issue that comes up with jRPG summons is that they are only thematically different than spells. Mechanically though, they don't feel all that different. GS may incorporate a different cost system, but it's functionally just a really big spell.
As far as how GS handles cost... it seems simple, yes. Until one day an aspiring designer decides "you know what? I'm gonna fill out all the possible summon tables!~"
It's at that point you realize what an absolutely absurdly daunting and impossible task that is. Thanks, Iris, for going up to 13 cost. You get... this:
Cost up to 5:
Cost up to 7:
For going to the full 16 (cost: 4 of each element)? Yeah I'm not posting that as an image. Follow the link: www.dropbox.com/s/thdlxy0yho7we7x/SummonsTotalPossible.png?dl=0
Let's look at the table for max possible summons per cost, shall we:
If we use this system, we follow Golden Sun's example and most certainly do not try to fill it out. The strength of this system is obvious - an absolutely stupid number of possible combinations available to help games feel different from one another. The weakness? Can never have a full set. Ever.
There are three methods I know of to change how summons work. The first is to do what the GSHC does in their hacks:
This approach just acts as a simple nerf. Some debate that it should be 1.5%, but 2% seems to be more common in actually released products.
---
The second method is one I'm fond of. Inspired by the AI used in Dark Dawn's tutorial, this has a slot behind each character in battle that can be used to have a summoned being placed behind them. These "summon slots" would have the following rules:
You cannot summon if the slot is filled.
You cannot summon a summon that is already on the field.
The summon shares elemental stats with its summoner.
The summon cannot be targeted or damaged. Only has Attack, Casting, and Agility stats alongside its standard moveset.
The summon acts immediately upon summoned. Starting the next turn, it acts in accordance to its Agility value instead.
The summon stays on the field until either A: Time runs out, or B: The summoner is KO'd.
On last turn, summon uses its signature skill, boosts the Elemental Power of the summoner, and disappears from battle.
Elementals used in this method have four stages:
1: Set - contributes to the class system, can be used in battle for an ability (becomes Standby)
2: Standby - can be used to summon with, or can be chosen to return to set mode (on summon: Becomes Active)
3: Active - actively being used to summon. Remains in this phase until summon leaves the field.
4: Recovery - elementals recover to set mode at a rate of 1 per turn in combat.
This would have a much higher risk vs reward setup for summoning. You can effectively double the amount of allies, but it comes at the cost of weakening your characters (both a loss of spells form dropping to lower rank classes, and loss of stats). It effectively destroys the summon rush strategy, and replaces it with a summoner + tank strat, which I think is something I'd much rather see being used. It should also be noted that clever players would realize that the summoner doesn't have to be the person who used the elementals, so in the end a lot of strategy goes into how one approaches it.
---
The third idea was brought up in the discord, and it's a rather neat one. It's effectively "Summons as Transformations".
When summoning, the summoner is transformed into (mechanically: Replaced by) the summoned being. Unlike the above suggestion, this summon would be in full player control rather than being AI controlled. The strength of the summon would likely be tied to that of the summoner as well, though how this is expressed is up for discussion. Likely, just as the above suggestion, there'd be a time limit for how long the transformation lasts, as well as a auto-revert on KO. It'd likely have a similar mechanical effect on Elementals.
For alternative cost methods, the Gradient Soul system that I've worked on uses a different method (if you couldn't tell, I was the aspiring designer in the example in the first section). Here's what I came up with:
Summons in this system take into account both the element and fundament of the elementals being used. Level 1 summons are the spirit-like summons, or "greater elementals" as we could call them, that GS employs. Levels 2-5 are the stronger summons - each one with one of four categories: Male, Female, Creature, and Construct. There are two ways of assigning these:
When using it, there are two methods that can be employed:
Finally, whether Fundamental summons are even a thing is optional. Compared to the above, this system is much easier to "fill out", so to speak. Depending on if playing summon sudoku or going full completionist, you get the following:
Finally, what do I think we should do?
As much as I'm intrigued by the transformation idea, I like the idea of being on-the-nose with what summons are - literally summoning a being to help in combat. Furthermore, while I worked hard on the Gradient Soul summoning method I outlined above, I think people would be more familiar with and appreciate the multi-elemental approach GS does more. So long as we keep it simple, and stick to 2 elements instead of going down the rabbit hole, I think we're fine. So... here's what I think we should do:
Why 5? Because anything more was rarely worth using in GS - it got too inefficient. We can redirect the resources that went into 6+ cost summons into stuff our players will actually use.
First, let's detail how Golden Sun handled Summons.
The general formula for summon damage in Golden Sun is:
(Base + (3% enemy HP x Number of Djinn Used)) x Elemental ModifiersThis is why summons are kinda "meh" vs standard foes, but god tier against bosses. Summon rushing in particular is as strong as it is because of simple math: 9 Djinn x 4 Characters x 3% HP damage per djinn = 108% of the enemies HP gone. This, before factoring in Base Damage and Elemental Modifiers. There are also thematic issues present within Golden Sun that are shared with basically every JRPG out there. In the name of saving the world, the heroes annihilate continents, because it was totally necessary in order to do 200 damage to that snail. Needless to say, there has to be a very, very strong suspension of disbelief going on.
Another issue that comes up with jRPG summons is that they are only thematically different than spells. Mechanically though, they don't feel all that different. GS may incorporate a different cost system, but it's functionally just a really big spell.
As far as how GS handles cost... it seems simple, yes. Until one day an aspiring designer decides "you know what? I'm gonna fill out all the possible summon tables!~"
It's at that point you realize what an absolutely absurdly daunting and impossible task that is. Thanks, Iris, for going up to 13 cost. You get... this:
Cost up to 5:
Cost up to 7:
For going to the full 16 (cost: 4 of each element)? Yeah I'm not posting that as an image. Follow the link: www.dropbox.com/s/thdlxy0yho7we7x/SummonsTotalPossible.png?dl=0
Let's look at the table for max possible summons per cost, shall we:
If we use this system, we follow Golden Sun's example and most certainly do not try to fill it out. The strength of this system is obvious - an absolutely stupid number of possible combinations available to help games feel different from one another. The weakness? Can never have a full set. Ever.
There are three methods I know of to change how summons work. The first is to do what the GSHC does in their hacks:
(Base + (2% enemy HP x Number of Djinn Used)) x Elemental Modifiers
This approach just acts as a simple nerf. Some debate that it should be 1.5%, but 2% seems to be more common in actually released products.
---
The second method is one I'm fond of. Inspired by the AI used in Dark Dawn's tutorial, this has a slot behind each character in battle that can be used to have a summoned being placed behind them. These "summon slots" would have the following rules:
You cannot summon if the slot is filled.
You cannot summon a summon that is already on the field.
The summon shares elemental stats with its summoner.
The summon cannot be targeted or damaged. Only has Attack, Casting, and Agility stats alongside its standard moveset.
The summon acts immediately upon summoned. Starting the next turn, it acts in accordance to its Agility value instead.
The summon stays on the field until either A: Time runs out, or B: The summoner is KO'd.
On last turn, summon uses its signature skill, boosts the Elemental Power of the summoner, and disappears from battle.
Elementals used in this method have four stages:
1: Set - contributes to the class system, can be used in battle for an ability (becomes Standby)
2: Standby - can be used to summon with, or can be chosen to return to set mode (on summon: Becomes Active)
3: Active - actively being used to summon. Remains in this phase until summon leaves the field.
4: Recovery - elementals recover to set mode at a rate of 1 per turn in combat.
This would have a much higher risk vs reward setup for summoning. You can effectively double the amount of allies, but it comes at the cost of weakening your characters (both a loss of spells form dropping to lower rank classes, and loss of stats). It effectively destroys the summon rush strategy, and replaces it with a summoner + tank strat, which I think is something I'd much rather see being used. It should also be noted that clever players would realize that the summoner doesn't have to be the person who used the elementals, so in the end a lot of strategy goes into how one approaches it.
---
The third idea was brought up in the discord, and it's a rather neat one. It's effectively "Summons as Transformations".
When summoning, the summoner is transformed into (mechanically: Replaced by) the summoned being. Unlike the above suggestion, this summon would be in full player control rather than being AI controlled. The strength of the summon would likely be tied to that of the summoner as well, though how this is expressed is up for discussion. Likely, just as the above suggestion, there'd be a time limit for how long the transformation lasts, as well as a auto-revert on KO. It'd likely have a similar mechanical effect on Elementals.
For alternative cost methods, the Gradient Soul system that I've worked on uses a different method (if you couldn't tell, I was the aspiring designer in the example in the first section). Here's what I came up with:
Summons in this system take into account both the element and fundament of the elementals being used. Level 1 summons are the spirit-like summons, or "greater elementals" as we could call them, that GS employs. Levels 2-5 are the stronger summons - each one with one of four categories: Male, Female, Creature, and Construct. There are two ways of assigning these:
- Each level has exactly one of each of these four, each aspect has exactly one of each as well, effectively requiring a kind of "summon sudoku" for each element.
- Each slot has four summons associated with it, one for each of the four categories.
When using it, there are two methods that can be employed:
- The entire table is filled out (I don't recommend this, for obvious reasons)
- Only the aspects relevant to the party are filled out (neutral elemental and matching-aspects only).
Finally, whether Fundamental summons are even a thing is optional. Compared to the above, this system is much easier to "fill out", so to speak. Depending on if playing summon sudoku or going full completionist, you get the following:
Finally, what do I think we should do?
As much as I'm intrigued by the transformation idea, I like the idea of being on-the-nose with what summons are - literally summoning a being to help in combat. Furthermore, while I worked hard on the Gradient Soul summoning method I outlined above, I think people would be more familiar with and appreciate the multi-elemental approach GS does more. So long as we keep it simple, and stick to 2 elements instead of going down the rabbit hole, I think we're fine. So... here's what I think we should do:
- Summons as Summons
- Classic GS Multi-Element for fuel
- Limit summons to 5 cost max, both for mono- and multi- elemental.
Why 5? Because anything more was rarely worth using in GS - it got too inefficient. We can redirect the resources that went into 6+ cost summons into stuff our players will actually use.
